Author Topic: Ron Paul debate clips  (Read 1002 times)

H. Rearden

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Ron Paul debate clips
« on: June 05, 2007, 10:04:54 PM »
From the elephant's debate on June 5. The only reason I watched it is because of Paul. I have not bothered watching any of the jackasses debates as I don't care to watch the jackasses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhXoHCZZXWw

mcasse

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2007, 04:39:51 AM »
I'm mostly disappointed with CNN, I mean, could their favoritism be anymore blatant? Lost track of how many times Rudy McRomney was asked questions compared to Ron. I think at once point it was 5 or 6 to 1. Seems that it's been decided that engaging Ron Paul isn't the best strategy for getting rid of Dr. Paul, so they've gone back to ignoring him.

I don't think this was Dr. Paul's best performance either. His first answer was great, paraphrased: 'end the war.' I don't agree with Dr. Paul's position on immigration (though that's not a push button issue for me), and but was glad he moved the discussion to the effect of welfare on illegal immigration.  Gays in the military, I don't think he was clear. I took what he was saying to be let gays in the military, but sexual conduct (of any sort) is disruptive and rules against such are no problem. Wolf took that as supporting DADT. Ron Paul's best one liner: "I'm Ron Paul and I'm the champion of the Constitution."

roland

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2007, 05:27:05 AM »
Hmmm.  Paul voted for the 700 mile fence?  At the very end of the clip, he states that we need to stop spending $1B annually on preemptive war so that we can spend it on education and medical care? 

That prompted me to examine his voting record (http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=BC031929)


  • He touts himself as a defender of the Constitution, and refers to Roe v. Wade as an example of Federal interference in issues that should be decided at the local level, however, he voted for every law regulating partial birth abortion that came down the pike.  So into which domain do abortion issues fall?  Even if one considers partial abortion to be the murder of a fully developed human being, which enumerated power grants the Federal government dominion over this issue?
  • He voted for HR4844, which mandates government-issued photo voter id cards.  Again, it is not a question of whether or not this is a good idea, but of whether such election governance is authorized by an enumerated power granted to the Federal government.
  • Voted for several measures that seem to promote Federal financial aid to education and generally reinforce Federal jurisdiction over education.
  • Voted for HR5092 to modernize and reform BATF.  A bit sticky, as the legislation tends to roll back some discretionary powers of the bureau.  However, there is no Constitutional foundation for BATF to even exist, and any such legislation tends to further legitimize it, no matter what the net present effect.  A NV would have been a better defense of the Constitution.
  • Voted to require Sec H&HS to negotiate lower prescription drug prices for Medicare recipients.  Again, the entire program and Department is extra-Constitutional.
  • Voted for several other measures that on balance tend to reinforce Federal jurisdiction over medical care.
  • Voted for the Secure Fence Act mentioned previously.
  • Voted to require hospitals to provide information on care rendered to undocumented persons (presumed immigrants).  An unfunded mandate and not among the enumerated powers.
  • Voted for HR2028 to prohibit Federal courts from hearing cases challenging the Pledge of Allegiance and its constitutionality.  Oh really?!
  • Voted for two measures allowing display of the Ten Commandments: one State, one Federal.  I have no problem with the first bill, it is none of the Federal government's business.  However, I have some difficulty with allowing this at the Federal level on First Amendment grounds, and the second bill went on to affirm the Ten Commandments as "declaration of fundamental principles that are the cornerstones of a fair and just society".  Hmmm. The first five Commandments are specifically about empowering clergy. That is an unacceptable Federal intrusion.
  • Voted to extend Federal transportation funding to avoid one of the mythical "government shutdowns" pending passage of a reauthorization bill.


I will concede that I could have found much more to criticize had I examined just about any other voting record.  He is no doubt the least bad of the declared candidates and may be head and shoulders above anyone else in Congress.  However, I believe that his voting record puts the lie to his claim to be a "defender of the Constitution" or a libertarian (he can qualify as an upper-case "L" Libertarian these days, but so can just about anyone else)  Ron Paul is nowhere near enough to persuade me to endorse the screwed-up electoral system by voting.

-Roland
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 05:34:20 AM by roland »
Government requires coercion.  Coercion is evil.  It really is that simple.  Stop volunteering as mutton.  More to the point: Stop volunteering me  as mutton.  Whatever, y'all.

gmcgath

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2007, 06:20:45 AM »
I just received a mailing from Ron Paul's campaign yesterday. He is now calling himself a "real conservative" -- with real computer-generated handwritten underlining -- rather than a libertarian.

Parts of it are good, but the part on immigration is really awful. He says, "The very borders of our nation are under assault today." A little later he says, "That is not 'immigration.' It is an invasion!" The last sentence is underlined.

Describing travel for the purpose of earning a living as "assault" and "invasion" implies that it's an act of force, which it isn't. It also provides an excuse for force; when a wetback is found picking lettuce, he's really "assaulting" us and "invading" the country, so we need to counter his military actions with a -- purely defensive! -- military action.

It may just be that no one can stay in Congress very long and remain sane. I gave some money to Paul's campaign after a party boss tried to ban him from the debates, but maybe it would have been better given to Cato or IJ.
The Blog of M'Gath: http://www.mcgath.com/blog

gdp

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2007, 07:45:34 AM »
The truly depressing thing is, that despite all those extra-Constitutional things Ron Paul has voted for, he's still  the closest thing that there is  to a "Constitution-respecting congresscritter" in these dark days...:(

No other congresscritter except Ron Paul even bothers to pay lip service  to the Constitution nowadays. The rest of the congresscritters in that feeding-frenzy-in-a-pork-barrel that is Congress all appear to share Bushnev's position: "Stop throwing the Constitution in my face!  It's just a goddammed piece of paper!"...

<* grrrrrr *>  >:(
"...If it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong..." -- Richard Feynman
"...As a Scientist, I'd much rather have questions I can't answer,
    than answers I can't question..."
--Max Tegmark

CFisher

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2007, 09:57:30 AM »
I know this is not popular with Libertarians and anarcho-capitalists, but as long as there is a welfare-warfare state, I don't see how we can continue with open borders, so voting to secure them in the interim isn't exactly a negative in my book.

The photo ID card is more disturbing and disappointing.
With my last breath... I curse Zoidberg!

gdp

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2007, 10:54:07 AM »

I know this is not popular with Libertarians and anarcho-capitalists, but as long as there is a welfare-warfare state, I don't see how we can continue with open borders, so voting to secure them in the interim isn't exactly a negative in my book.


Which is the real problem: The "open" border, or the Welfare-Warfare state ? ? ?

If the current crop of neo-"Know Nothings"  REALLY cared that `Illegal' immigrants are stealing `Our' Welfare, then their solution should be to vote to stop `giving' illegal immigrants Welfare.

However, the "Illegals Are Stealing `Our' Welfare" excuse is exactly that: Just an excuse. Their real  objection to `Illegals' is the some objection that every  crop of American `Nativists'  have always  had to Immigrants: That the `Illegals' are "Not Our Kind."


American `Nativists' movements have arisen with every  wave of immigrants to the U.S.  `Nativist' mobs and cabals have arisen to block the immigration of Germans, to block immigration of the Irish, to block immigration of Catholics, to block immigration of Germans and Irish because they were predominantly Catholic, to block the immigration of Chinese, to block the immigration of Japanese, &c., &c., &c.  In each case, the `Nativists' have raised the exact same litany of objections: These Immigrants don't share `our' culture, they don't share `our' values, they are dirty, they are violent, they are thieves, they have too many babies. But ultimately, the bottom line is simply this: They are Aliens. They are "Not Like `Us'."

The `Nativists' in EVERY generation of Americans have called for the FedGov to "Shut The Border!" to keep out those who are "Not Like Us." These calls for "Closed Borders" were always firmly and wisely voted down until 1891. I don't think it's any great coincidence that none of those earlier votes succeeded until the forces advocating socialist protectionism and trade-unionism began to dominate political discource in the late 1800s...

As for calls to "Secure the Border," it is no more possible to "secure" the U.S. border than it is to put a cop on every street-corner --- and for the same reason: It would take far too many cops! The FedGov is no more capable of "Securing the Border" and stopping `Illegal' immigation than it is of stopping `Illegal' drug traffic or of "Winning the War on Drugs."

The most the Feds can possibly do is to try to drive up the price of `Illegal' labor --- which will instead just drive it into a fully underground "Black Market," which will just mean that the Feds will instead lose the tax revenues they are currently getting from the `Illegals' who are currently working "above" ground but with false papers. And that  is why the congrescritters are currently talking "Limited Amnesty" rather than "Border Crackdown:" The porkers in Congress don't want to lose the US$ ~100 BiIllion/yr in tax revenues that they are currently raking in from `illegals' working under false papers!



"...If it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong..." -- Richard Feynman
"...As a Scientist, I'd much rather have questions I can't answer,
    than answers I can't question..."
--Max Tegmark

CB750

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2007, 11:21:33 AM »
Comment removed.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 01:28:00 PM by CB750 »

CFisher

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2007, 11:49:26 AM »
Which is the real problem: The "open" border, or the Welfare-Warfare state ? ? ?

I’m not going to get sidetracked on an immigration debate in this thread, gdp, suffice to say that I don't really care one way or the other who comes here, if they come peacefully. I know American history too, and am aware that the longer a community stays here the more American they become with each generation.

What I do care about is the drain on the budget, the resultant cries for the government to do something even more asinine, expensive, and foolish about it (such as socialized medicine or pouring more money into public schools), and the taxman stealing more money from my wallet to pay for it.

And as long as we're going to be overseas spreading the Empire abroad, open borders invite the nice folks whose countries we've bombed into hellholes to walk across undetected with god knows what.

but to answer your question: the latter.

Which, however, do we have a better chance of addressing right now? The former. 

I despise the welfare-warfare state, and I would love to wake up tomorrow and read the news that we're pulling the legions back to our shores, abolishing 95% of the federal government and returning to a constitutional republic.

But the likelihood of that happening is pretty slim. It will take years, if not generations of work to rollback the changes made to our government, short of a popular uprising.

With my last breath... I curse Zoidberg!

roland

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2007, 03:17:58 PM »
Which is the real problem: The "open" border, or the Welfare-Warfare state ? ? ?
But the likelihood of that happening is pretty slim. It will take years, if not generations of work to rollback the changes made to our government, short of a popular uprising.
[/quote]

Do you think for a moment that the rent-seekers have not slithered from their dark burrows and found ways to make millions from illegal immigration?  Now, who do you think has more political clout in this corrupt system:  those who are actually losing health or wealth because of illegal immigration, or those slimy hole dwellers making money from it?  I venture to say that the prospects for any real, effective immigration control and those for rollback of the Welfare-Warfare state are equally unlikely.  What stupid projects like the 700 mile fence will do, no matter how ineffective they may be at their nominal purpose, is engender even more pork and entitle those very same rent-seekers (or their den-mates) to suck even more marrow from our bones.

-Roland

Government requires coercion.  Coercion is evil.  It really is that simple.  Stop volunteering as mutton.  More to the point: Stop volunteering me  as mutton.  Whatever, y'all.

roland

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2007, 03:34:38 PM »
The truly depressing thing is, that despite all those extra-Constitutional things Ron Paul has voted for, he's still  the closest thing that there is  to a "Constitution-respecting congresscritter" in these dark days...:(

No other congresscritter except Ron Paul even bothers to pay lip service  to the Constitution nowadays. The rest of the congresscritters in that feeding-frenzy-in-a-pork-barrel that is Congress all appear to share Bushnev's position: "Stop throwing the Constitution in my face!  It's just a goddammed piece of paper!"...

<* grrrrrr *>  >:(

It distresses me to agree...  I also should point out that in examining Paul's record, I looked only at "Yes" votes under the theory that Congress is guilty of more sins of commission than omission, and that I gave him the overwhelming benefit of the doubt where a vote for a measure could have been attributed to a desire for either fiscal restraint or social control at the Federal level, and there wasn't enough information in the bill summary to decide which was more likely.  So Paul could well be less libertarian than my post painted him, but is exceedingly unlikely to be more.

-Roland
Government requires coercion.  Coercion is evil.  It really is that simple.  Stop volunteering as mutton.  More to the point: Stop volunteering me  as mutton.  Whatever, y'all.

Libertarian

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2007, 05:25:49 PM »
Roland:  great link above; thanks.

But I could not see where RP voted for an ID card.  Can you point me to it?

When I did a web search, I found only instance afte instance of RP being AGAINST a national ID card.

roland

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2007, 06:23:06 PM »
Roland:  great link above; thanks.

But I could not see where RP voted for an ID card.  Can you point me to it?

When I did a web search, I found only instance afte instance of RP being AGAINST a national ID card.

Federal Election Integrity Act of 2006 - 9/20/2006 http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?cs_id=V3901&can_id=296

-Roland
Government requires coercion.  Coercion is evil.  It really is that simple.  Stop volunteering as mutton.  More to the point: Stop volunteering me  as mutton.  Whatever, y'all.

CB750

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2007, 09:28:40 PM »
Quote
The porkers in Congress don't want to lose the US$ ~100 BiIllion/yr in tax revenues that they are currently raking in from `illegals' working under false papers!

Isn't that really just an admission by them that, because of their heavy taxes and fees and regulations even down at the minimum wage level that they need people getting paid under the table to afford labor at those levels? If these immigrants were all legal they would immediately have to be paid minimum wage and then immediately taxed, regulated etc and so would be currently unemployable. This is really an issue of the massive amounts of money drained from workers by the state and the only way employers can afford to hire people is by having them not pay taxes and fees.

Its already a black market of labor. Its a way to avoid the heavy taxes at the poor level. That's why Americans won't work these jobs. it just doesn't pay for the employer or the employee to work these low paying jobs because the state cuts out so much from their pay checks that its cheaper to get on welfare, be homeless or bum off someone else.

And this is why making 20 million immigrants citizens is a bad idea. Once they are legal they MUST be paid minimum wage and will lose more cash than if they worked illegally for even less overall money. A person working under the table for $6 an hour probably keeps more than the legal min wage earner at $9 and hour. Plus the employer does not have to pay the added $3 per hour in addition to the $9 an hour they must pay to employ the legal worker. A rule of thumb for legal employees is the employer pays anywhere from 1.25 to 1.5 times what they offer the employee in the form of taxes, fees and insurance. If these workers become legal they will find it cheaper just not to work minimum wage. In essence we would be robbing them of wages by making them legal.

roland

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Re: Ron Paul debate clips
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2007, 06:04:08 AM »
...
It may just be that no one can stay in Congress very long and remain sane. I gave some money to Paul's campaign after a party boss tried to ban him from the debates, but maybe it would have been better given to Cato or IJ...

Money better spent on arsenal enhancement, perhaps, if Paul is the best the system can cough up today...

-Roland
Government requires coercion.  Coercion is evil.  It really is that simple.  Stop volunteering as mutton.  More to the point: Stop volunteering me  as mutton.  Whatever, y'all.